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Man fired over god.
Posted: Oct 28th 2009 2:08pm | IP: Logged | Reply to this
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Link.

The article wrote:
WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. – A former cashier for The Home Depot who has been wearing a "One nation under God" button on his work apron for more than a year has been fired, he says because of the religious reference. The company claims that expressing such personal beliefs is simply not allowed.

"I've worn it for well over a year and I support my country and God," Trevor Keezor said Tuesday. "I was just doing what I think every American should do, just love my country."

The American flag button Keezer wore in the Florida store since March 2008 says "One nation under God, indivisible."

Earlier this month, he began bringing a Bible to read during his lunch break at the store in the rural town of Okeechobee, about 140 miles north of Miami. That's when he says The Home Depot management told him he would have to remove the button.

Keezer refused, and he was fired on Oct. 23, he said.

"It feels kind of like a punishment, like I was punished for just loving my country," Keezer said.

A Home Depot spokesman said Keezer was fired because he violated the company's dress code.

"This associate chose to wear a button that expressed his religious beliefs. The issue is not whether or not we agree with the message on the button," Craig Fishel said. "That's not our place to say, which is exactly why we have a blanket policy, which is long-standing and well-communicated to our associates, that only company-provided pins and badges can be worn on our aprons."

Fishel said Keezer was offered a company-approved pin that said, "United We Stand," but he declined.

Keezer's lawyer, Kara Skorupa, said she planned to sue the Atlanta-based company.

"There are federal and state laws that protect against religious discrimination," Skorupa said. "It's not like he was out in the aisles preaching to people."

Keezer said he was working at the store to earn money for college, and wore the button to support his country and his 27-year-old brother, who is in the National Guard and is set to report in December for a second tour of duty in Iraq.

Skorupa noted the slogan on Keezer's pin is straight from the Pledge of Allegiance.

"These mottos and sayings that involve God, that's part of our country and historical fabric," Skorupa said. "In God we trust is on our money."

Michael Masinter, a civil rights and employment law professor at NOVA Southeastern University in Fort Lauderdale, said any lawsuit over religious discrimination might be a tough one to win.

"Because it's a private business, not one that's owned and operated by the government, it doesn't have to operate under the free speech provisions of the First Amendment," Masinter said.

"But we're not talking about religious displays here," he said. "This sounds more like a political message ... Wearing a button of that sort would not easily be described as a traditional form of religious expression like wearing a cross or wearing a yarmulke."


I was trying to figure out how I feel about this, really. Personally, I thought that if his employer asked him not to wear it because it violated their policy, then he should be fired if he refused. Then I wondered if I only felt that way because I'm tired of Christians pushing their religion down my throat. Would I feel that way if they asked someone not to wear a pin that said something about Allah bless America?

I don't know, really. I do know that I'm tired of Christians thinking they own this country and they can do whatever they please in the name of their god.
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Posted: Oct 28th 2009 2:13pm | Edited: Oct 28th 2009 2:13pm | IP: Logged | Reply to this
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Fair policy is fair.

Not really related, but honestly, who brings a bible to read on their lunch break?

Edited, Oct 28th 2009 1:13pm by Kirby
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Posted: Oct 28th 2009 2:15pm | Edited: Oct 28th 2009 2:17pm | IP: Logged | Reply to this
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Ive never denied anyone the right to express their own view, until they feel the need to promote upon myself or others (Mainly my cousin the minister, and an old childhood friend who 'Fears for my soul' because of my homosexuality). Some people are just too uptight. It's a button. I bet if he had been gay and wearing a rainbow button that said ..well pretty much anything, they would have left him be because they didnt want to infringe on his 1st Amendment right.

So does this mean that anyone who pays for items with american currency is now subject to this? Or will all of the countries currency need to be reformed to remove the "one nation under" "in god we trust" (yeah, he who is without money knoweth not wtf it says) text?

Anyway, I say bullsh*t to this. The guy was wearing a button...he wasn't out force feeding his views down another persons throat IMO.

Edited, Oct 28th 2009 2:17pm by Dyadem
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Posted: Oct 28th 2009 2:17pm | IP: Logged | Reply to this
Jophiel
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If the policy only applies to buttons on aprons and they wouldn't fire (for example) a cashier for wearing a cross on a necklace then I suppose I can't be too upset. I've no idea if this is the case or not but the article makes it sound like a "no buttons" policy period, not a "No God buttons" policy. "Kiss me, I'm Irish", happy face and American flag pins would be as verboten as pins mentioning God.
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Posted: Oct 28th 2009 2:20pm | IP: Logged | Reply to this
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Dyadem wrote:
Or will all of the countries currency need to be reformed to remove the "one nation under" "in god we trust" (yeah, he who is without money knoweth not wtf it says) text?


Personally, I think that it should be removed.
----------------------------
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I am eternally grateful.. for my knack of finding in great books, some of them very funny books, reason enough to feel honored to be alive, no matter what else might be going on.
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Posted: Oct 28th 2009 2:20pm | IP: Logged | Reply to this
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Kirby the Eccentric wrote:
Fair policy is fair.

Not really related, but honestly, who brings a bible to read on their lunch break?

Edited, Oct 28th 2009 1:13pm by Kirby


Someone who has let/made religion become their life, instead of merely a part of it.
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Posted: Oct 28th 2009 2:21pm | IP: Logged | Reply to this
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:
I was trying to figure out how I feel about this, really. Personally, I thought that if his employer asked him not to wear it because it violated their policy, then he should be fired if he refused. Then I wondered if I only felt that way because I'm tired of Christians pushing their religion down my throat. Would I feel that way if they asked someone not to wear a pin that said something about Allah bless America?


I would be surprised if this pin was the sole issue with the employee. This was probably the final straw in a long string of annoyances or was something the employee became very unreasonable about and it just worried their employer so much they just felt a parting of ways was the best approach.

I'm against religious dress or symbols at work. Its a personal pursuit and has nothing to do with your ability to perform a role.

Belkira the Tulip wrote:
I don't know, really. I do know that I'm tired of Christians thinking they own this country and they can do whatever they please in the name of their god.


Do what we British do, show an absurb amount of apathy and ignore the church Smiley: nod
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Posted: Oct 28th 2009 2:23pm | IP: Logged | Reply to this
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"There are federal and state laws that protect against religious discrimination," Skorupa said. "It's not like he was out in the aisles preaching to people."


Yeah, as in, they can't require you to shave if your religion prohibits or otherwise discourages it. I'm pretty sure there's no code in the bible, old testament or new, that says people must wear a button expressing their religion orientation. The dress code seems fair enough, and honestly, he should have just removed the button. The fact that he didn't when advised to do so indicates (to me) that he was probably a bit standoffish about the request and I don't see a problem with them terminating his employment after failing to comply with a warning and company policy.

On a less objective note:

Quote:
"I was just doing what I think every American should do, just love my country."

Quote:
I was punished for just loving my country,


Bullsh*t. He was offered a similar button that expressed equivalent support for his country without the religious overtones and declined to accept. This is about religion, plain and simple.

Quote:
Earlier this month, he began bringing a Bible to read during his lunch break at the store in the rural town of Okeechobee, about 140 miles north of Miami. That's when he says The Home Depot management told him he would have to remove the button.


Though I admit I don't know the details, this sounds like someone who was probably openly religious before but recently crossed a few lines or crossed a few wires internally. Maybe he joined one of them thar "clubs" those crazy Christians are always forming.
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Classiest f'in pro sports player ever. Bar none.
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Posted: Oct 28th 2009 2:24pm | IP: Logged | Reply to this
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Kirby the Eccentric wrote:
Fair policy is fair.

Not really related, but honestly, who brings a bible to read on their lunch break?

Why do you care what others choose to read during their breaks?
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Posted: Oct 28th 2009 2:24pm | IP: Logged | Reply to this
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If it is indeed a company policy then so be it. My company has a rule against wearing t-shirts with slogans on them. I don't think an exception should be made for me if I want to wear my "Ask me why you're going to Hell" t-shirt, for example.

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Posted: Oct 28th 2009 2:25pm | IP: Logged | Reply to this
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MentalFrog wrote:
Kirby the Eccentric wrote:
Fair policy is fair.

Not really related, but honestly, who brings a bible to read on their lunch break?

Why do you care what others choose to read during their breaks?


What do you have against casual curiosity?
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Classiest f'in pro sports player ever. Bar none.
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Posted: Oct 28th 2009 2:28pm | IP: Logged | Reply to this
Jophiel
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Kirby the Eccentric wrote:
Not really related, but honestly, who brings a bible to read on their lunch break?

I used to know a guy who did that. He wasn't in-your-face religious, he just tried to read the Bible daily and figured it was a better way to spend his lunch break than reading the OSHA posters in the break room for the 1,000th time.
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Posted: Oct 28th 2009 2:29pm | IP: Logged | Reply to this
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BrownDuck wrote:
MentalFrog wrote:
Kirby the Eccentric wrote:
Fair policy is fair.

Not really related, but honestly, who brings a bible to read on their lunch break?

Why do you care what others choose to read during their breaks?


What do you have against casual curiosity?


From what I understand the bible is full of wars, famine, wizards and zombies. Sounds like any other fantasy book out there.
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Posted: Oct 28th 2009 2:31pm | IP: Logged | Reply to this
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MentalFrog wrote:
From what I understand the bible is full of wars, famine, wizards and zombies.

And clerics.
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Posted: Oct 28th 2009 2:47pm | IP: Logged | Reply to this
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Jophiel wrote:
MentalFrog wrote:
From what I understand the bible is full of wars, famine, wizards and zombies.

And clerics.


And ancient humans that can talk to snakes.
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Posted: Oct 28th 2009 2:48pm | Edited: Oct 28th 2009 2:48pm | IP: Logged | Reply to this
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Shaowstrike wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
MentalFrog wrote:
From what I understand the bible is full of wars, famine, wizards and zombies.

And clerics.


And ancient humans that can talk to snakes.


And zombies.

Edited, Oct 28th 2009 2:48pm by Belkira
----------------------------
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Posted: Oct 28th 2009 2:48pm | IP: Logged | Reply to this
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Shaowstrike wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
MentalFrog wrote:
From what I understand the bible is full of wars, famine, wizards and zombies.

And clerics.


And ancient humans that can talk to snakes.


I already mentioned wizards.
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Posted: Oct 28th 2009 2:48pm | IP: Logged | Reply to this
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MentalFrog wrote:
Kirby the Eccentric wrote:
Fair policy is fair.

Not really related, but honestly, who brings a bible to read on their lunch break?

Why do you care what others choose to read during their breaks?


Fun fact: I read "Flowers in the Attic" during lunch breaks at a landscaping job I used to have.

It was a pretty f*cked up book.
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Posted: Oct 28th 2009 2:49pm | IP: Logged | Reply to this
MentalFrog
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:
Shaowstrike wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
MentalFrog wrote:
From what I understand the bible is full of wars, famine, wizards and zombies.

And clerics.


And ancient humans that can talk to snakes.


And zombies.

Edited, Oct 28th 2009 2:48pm by Belkira


Did I mention zombies? Don't forget the zombies.
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MentalFrog wrote:
Shaowstrike wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
MentalFrog wrote:
From what I understand the bible is full of wars, famine, wizards and zombies.

And clerics.


And ancient humans that can talk to snakes.


I already mentioned wizards.


I thought you were talking about Jesus before his "pretend to be a lawn ornament" phase.
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Posted: Oct 28th 2009 2:54pm | IP: Logged | Reply to this
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they took his job God!

My feelings on this would depend on whether all buttons do indeed violate policy or if it was just because it had "religious significance"
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Bardalicious wrote:
they took his job God!

My feelings on this would depend on whether all buttons do indeed violate policy or if it was just because it had "religious significance"


Well, from what I understood, their policy is about the religious significance.
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Posted: Oct 28th 2009 3:07pm | IP: Logged | Reply to this
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If you have to wear a wight polo shirt and black pants to work as part of the dress code, then you can't wear a white polo shirt that says "Pink Floyd Rules." He would have been asked to wear a plain white polo shirt just the same as he was asked to remove the button, and he would have been fired for his refusal just as he was for the button.

Private businesses have the right to dictate reasonable dress codes to their employees.
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Bullsh*t response by HD. They let him wear the pin for a year with no warning (I only skimmed the article, so maybe I missed that one) and then out of no where, they tell him to take it off, and weeks later, they can him? Bullsh*t move.
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Uglysasquatch, Mercenary Major wrote:
Bullsh*t response by HD. They let him wear the pin for a year with no warning (I only skimmed the article, so maybe I missed that one) and then out of no where, they tell him to take it off, and weeks later, they can him? Bullsh*t move.


Agreed, which means there was probably some other cause, be it a complaint by another employee or a customer.
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Uglysasquatch, Mercenary Major wrote:
Bullsh*t response by HD. They let him wear the pin for a year with no warning (I only skimmed the article, so maybe I missed that one) and then out of no where, they tell him to take it off, and weeks later, they can him? Bullsh*t move.

It was stupid not to apply the rules consistently, but that doesn't negate their authority.
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Posted: Oct 28th 2009 3:16pm | Edited: Oct 28th 2009 3:17pm | IP: Logged | Reply to this
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Allegory wrote:
Uglysasquatch, Mercenary Major wrote:
Bullsh*t response by HD. They let him wear the pin for a year with no warning (I only skimmed the article, so maybe I missed that one) and then out of no where, they tell him to take it off, and weeks later, they can him? Bullsh*t move.

It was stupid not to apply the rules consistently, but that doesn't negate their authority.
They're fine to apply the rules consistently, but clearly, allowing him to wear the pin for a year, and then firing him was not consistency. What they should have done was warn him, giving him ample time to remedy the concern they were having and inform him that if it wasn't rectified, they'd dismiss him. Now, it's possible this happened exactly like that, but not from how the article is written.

If you don't understand this, then do not be surprised when one day, the business you operate, unionizes on you.

Edited, Oct 28th 2009 5:17pm by Uglysasquatch
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Posted: Oct 28th 2009 3:27pm | IP: Logged | Reply to this
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Uglysasquatch, Mercenary Major wrote:
Allegory wrote:
Uglysasquatch, Mercenary Major wrote:
Bullsh*t response by HD. They let him wear the pin for a year with no warning (I only skimmed the article, so maybe I missed that one) and then out of no where, they tell him to take it off, and weeks later, they can him? Bullsh*t move.

It was stupid not to apply the rules consistently, but that doesn't negate their authority.
They're fine to apply the rules consistently, but clearly, allowing him to wear the pin for a year, and then firing him was not consistency. What they should have done was warn him, giving him ample time to remedy the concern they were having and inform him that if it wasn't rectified, they'd dismiss him. Now, it's possible this happened exactly like that, but not from how the article is written.

If you don't understand this, then do not be surprised when one day, the business you operate, unionizes on you.

Edited, Oct 28th 2009 5:17pm by Uglysasquatch

You make it sound like it takes weeks to take a button off of your apron.
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Posted: Oct 28th 2009 3:32pm | IP: Logged | Reply to this
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As a former employee of the Home Depot, I have to say that this guy has no one to blame but himself. The dress code, to which you must implicitly agree to follow when hired, is extremely clear on the issue of augments to your uniform. You cannot wear anything under or on your orange apron which is either not already approved by the Home Depot or cleared with the store manager.

My experience (at my store at least, although the "culture" of the company is pretty homogeneous across the country), is that you are better off not wearing any kind of button or ribbon or augment at all, as the majority of them are considered inappropriate. One employee was asked to remove her Chicago Bears button during their Super Bowl run some years ago, so the policy does not necessarily discriminate against religious icons; more accurately it would be said to discriminate against "fun", but I digress.

A couple of you have danced around what I believe to be the core issue here. The culture of the company facilitates the formation of cliques within the store, some more favored by management than others. It is very possible that some of the more influential employees at this store simply did not like this person, whether because of his open religious beliefs, his personality, his work ethic, whatever. Due to that dislike, they most likely used their pull with management and reported him.

Why wait a year to ask him to remove it? Since he was not directly harming anyone, nor was he openly preaching his beliefs to others, management probably looked the other way, especially if he was a competent employee. Until he started bringing the bible to work with him that is. Unfortunately that was probably the straw that broke the camel's back, further offending those in the store that did not like him, and he was then reported, asked to remove the button, then predictably fired when he refused.

This incident is most likely the outcome of a string of incidences going back to whenever he was hired, coupled with the fact that he was probably not favored by management, but allowed leeway because he was good at his job. All of this is obviously speculation on my part, but I would be very surprised if it weren't true.
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Bardalicious wrote:
You make it sound like it takes weeks to take a button off of your apron.
It doesn't, but that doesn't mean you don't give them ample time to act. You're changing their work environment, you need to give them ample time to respond. Ultimately, they need to give him enough reasonable time (typically minimum of 2 weeks) before they enforce a rule that they've completely ignored for 18 months.
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Uglysasquatch, Mercenary Major wrote:
Bardalicious wrote:
You make it sound like it takes weeks to take a button off of your apron.
It doesn't, but that doesn't mean you don't give them ample time to act. You're changing their work environment, you need to give them ample time to respond. Ultimately, they need to give him enough reasonable time (typically minimum of 2 weeks) before they enforce a rule that they've completely ignored for 18 months.

Yeah, he must be having a hard time adjusting. I mean, without that heavy button on his front, he must be leaning backwards something fierce.


Sorry, I'm not buying the whole sans-button thing being that big of a "change to his work environment".
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Uglysasquatch, Mercenary Major wrote:
They're fine to apply the rules consistently, but clearly, allowing him to wear the pin for a year, and then firing him was not consistency. What they should have done was warn him, giving him ample time to remedy the concern they were having and inform him that if it wasn't rectified, they'd dismiss him. Now, it's possible this happened exactly like that, but not from how the article is written.

If you don't understand this, then do not be surprised when one day, the business you operate, unionizes on you.

I don't think you understand what I was saying, or maybe I am misunderstanding you. I agree with you that it was inconsistent. They made a mistake there.

However, they still have the authority to dictate a reasonable dress code, and a time span weeks is more than ample for such a simple request as "remove your button." That is plenty of time for the employee to discuss the situation with you and plenty of time to file a complaint with a higher authority. They even offered him an alternative, which he refused. If you asked an employee to remove a button and a week later they still did not do it, then that is direct defiance. Firing defiant employees seems pretty reasonable to me.
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Secondarily, management may not have seen the button until someone complained. I suppose they could have a daily inspection, if they wanted.

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Posted: Oct 28th 2009 3:47pm | IP: Logged | Reply to this
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Allegory wrote:
I don't think you understand what I was saying, or maybe I am misunderstanding you. I agree with you that it was inconsistent. They made a mistake there.
We've been through this before. When it appears that I've misunderstood you, it means you need to clarify yourself. When it's you who's misunderstood me, you need to think harder. Don't worry, you'll get it one day.

That being said, we're in agreement. From the way the article is written, it doesn't appear to me that he was told if he didn't take it off within a certain time frame, he'd be let go. Granted, I only skimmed it.

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Posted: Oct 28th 2009 3:49pm | IP: Logged | Reply to this
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Samira wrote:
Secondarily, management may not have seen the button until someone complained. I suppose they could have a daily inspection, if they wanted.

A year and a half? Where were the management that they never saw it during his employment since Mar '08?
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Posted: Oct 28th 2009 3:54pm | IP: Logged | Reply to this
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He was offered a different pin to wear instead, approved as part of the dress code for employees. He refused, and was consequently terminated.

I fail to see the issue. Doesn't matter what's on the button, if it's against the policy and he is refusing to remove it, they have every right to fire him.
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Posted: Oct 28th 2009 3:57pm | IP: Logged | Reply to this
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Allegory wrote:
If you have to wear a wight polo shirt and black pants to work as part of the dress code, then you can't wear a white polo shirt that says "Punk Floyd Rules." He would have been asked to wear a plain white polo shirt just the same as he was asked to remove the button, and he would have been fired for his refusal just as he was for the button.

Private businesses have the right to dictate reasonable dress codes to their employees.


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Posted: Oct 28th 2009 4:00pm | IP: Logged | Reply to this
Samira
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Uglysasquatch, Mercenary Major wrote:
Samira wrote:
Secondarily, management may not have seen the button until someone complained. I suppose they could have a daily inspection, if they wanted.

A year and a half? Where were the management that they never saw it during his employment since Mar '08?


Hell if I know. Maybe he took care not to let them see it. Maybe they're not on the floor that much. Maybe a lot of things.

The point is, he had ample opportunity, apparently since he was hired, to know he was breaking the rules. When he got called on it, he felt that his need to wear the pin superseded the company's policy. They disagreed.

----------------------------
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Posted: Oct 28th 2009 4:00pm | IP: Logged | Reply to this
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bsphil wrote:
He was offered a different pin to wear instead, approved as part of the dress code for employees. He refused, and was consequently terminated.

I fail to see the issue. Doesn't matter what's on the button, if it's against the policy and he is refusing to remove it, they have every right to fire him.
Not when they failed to enforce it for 18 months.


If this happened to my company, we could be sued for wrongful dismissal. I'm not sure why you all think it's ok. It's no wonder unions hold so much power down there. They're the only ones who will fight for your rights.
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Posted: Oct 28th 2009 4:05pm | Edited: Oct 28th 2009 4:13pm | IP: Logged | Reply to this
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Uglysasquatch, Mercenary Major wrote:
bsphil wrote:
He was offered a different pin to wear instead, approved as part of the dress code for employees. He refused, and was consequently terminated.

I fail to see the issue. Doesn't matter what's on the button, if it's against the policy and he is refusing to remove it, they have every right to fire him.
Not when they failed to enforce it for 18 months.
It's a policy where I work that you're not allowed to carry a cell phone on you while you're clocked in. Can't be in your pockets or anything. If I were to be caught with my cell phone on me, and I refused to put it in the locker in the break room, I could be fired for it.

It doesn't matter if it takes time for people to realize you're breaking their rules. They found out, he would not comply. Had they found out and he agreed not to wear the button anymore, that would have been a 30 second conversation, and he'd still have a job.

By the by, I'll agree that it's a rather small and insignificant policy overall. That doesn't change the fact that you still agree in advance to adhere to it, and that failure to do so may result in the termination of your employment. If you don't want to play by the stupid rules, work somewhere else.



Edited, Oct 28th 2009 4:13pm by bsphil
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Posted: Oct 28th 2009 4:08pm | Edited: Oct 28th 2009 4:09pm | IP: Logged | Reply to this
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Interesting debate.

I'm torn on the subject of whether or not religious motives should be allowed while representing someone else who does want to be put in relation to that religion. For instance, if it's not okay to wear a button that mentions the Christian god, would it be okay to wear a hijab if you're Muslim? While both are symbols of your religion and would be visible to the public, one is part of the religion and culture of a people while the other is just an accessory. You can ask someone to remove a button with a religious statement, but it's much harder to ask a Muslim girl to remove her hajib.

Meh, I wish people gave less of a damn.

Edited, Oct 28th 2009 11:09pm by Mazra
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Posted: Oct 28th 2009 4:11pm | IP: Logged | Reply to this
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Quote:
It doesn't matter if it takes time for people to realize you're breaking their rules.
If it wasn't in plain sight? Sure. The fact that is though is easy enough to argue that they knew he was wearing it and allowed it to happen.

You guys can disagree with me all you want, but we lost a case on this before. We allowed someone to do something that was against the rules, but because we allowed them to do so for over a year, with no repercussions, when we finally tried to enforce the rule, we had no ground to stand on, legally.
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Posted: Oct 28th 2009 4:12pm | IP: Logged | Reply to this
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Uglysasquatch, Mercenary Major wrote:
bsphil wrote:
He was offered a different pin to wear instead, approved as part of the dress code for employees. He refused, and was consequently terminated.

I fail to see the issue. Doesn't matter what's on the button, if it's against the policy and he is refusing to remove it, they have every right to fire him.
Not when they failed to enforce it for 18 months.

If this happened to my company, we could be sued for wrongful dismissal. I'm not sure why you all think it's ok. It's no wonder unions hold so much power down there. They're the only ones who will fight for your rights.


If you park in a handicapped spot without proper documentation 10 days and get ticketed on the 11th, are you going to also argue that you cannot be ticketed because nobody said anything the first 10 days?
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Posted: Oct 28th 2009 4:25pm | IP: Logged | Reply to this
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Uglysasquatch, Mercenary Major wrote:
Not when they failed to enforce it for 18 months.


If this happened to my company, we could be sued for wrongful dismissal. I'm not sure why you all think it's ok. It's no wonder unions hold so much power down there. They're the only ones who will fight for your rights.


Well, really, depending on the size of the pin, it's quite possible management didn't realize what it said until it was pointed out to them.

Also, most states are "at-will employment," meaning that an employer can fire you for any reason, and they don't have to tell you why. It's quite possible that they never said they fired him because of the pin, but he's assuming that's what happened since it was the last thing he was reprimanded on.
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Posted: Oct 28th 2009 4:26pm | IP: Logged | Reply to this
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:
Uglysasquatch, Mercenary Major wrote:
Not when they failed to enforce it for 18 months.


If this happened to my company, we could be sued for wrongful dismissal. I'm not sure why you all think it's ok. It's no wonder unions hold so much power down there. They're the only ones who will fight for your rights.


Well, really, depending on the size of the pin, it's quite possible management didn't realize what it said until it was pointed out to them.

Also, most states are "at-will employment,"


Now I'm picturing the Home Depot Overlord peering down on his managers commanding them, "Fire at will!".

[:um:]
----------------------------
Albert Pujols wrote:
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Posted: Oct 28th 2009 4:27pm | IP: Logged | Reply to this
Jophiel
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Mazra wrote:
For instance, if it's not okay to wear a button that mentions the Christian god, would it be okay to wear a hijab if you're Muslim?

Judging from the article, it would be okay to wear a hijab or a yarmulke or, for that matter, a Catholic crucifix. The policy in question applies to buttons and pins on the apron, not to religious accessories in of themselves.

Wearing a rosary is out though because, perhaps unknown to some female pop stars, rosaries aren't jewelry.
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Posted: Oct 28th 2009 4:28pm | Edited: Oct 28th 2009 4:29pm | IP: Logged | Reply to this
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:
Also, most states are "at-will employment," meaning that an employer can fire you for any reason, and they don't have to tell you why. It's quite possible that they never said they fired him because of the pin, but he's assuming that's what happened since it was the last thing he was reprimanded on.
You realize your labour laws are archaic, yes?


Quote:
If you park in a handicapped spot without proper documentation 10 days and get ticketed on the 11th, are you going to also argue that you cannot be ticketed because nobody said anything the first 10 days?
Nice. Let's go from breaking company rules, to breaking the law. Totally the same.


Edited, Oct 28th 2009 6:29pm by Uglysasquatch
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Uglysasquatch, Mercenary Major wrote:
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
Also, most states are "at-will employment," meaning that an employer can fire you for any reason, and they don't have to tell you why. It's quite possible that they never said they fired him because of the pin, but he's assuming that's what happened since it was the last thing he was reprimanded on.
You realize your labour laws are archaic, yes?


Oh yeah. Of course.

Also, even if it is an at-will employment state, they still can't discriminate against religion, race, creed, etc. etc. So we do have that going for us...
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Posted: Oct 28th 2009 4:32pm | IP: Logged | Reply to this
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I think that the managers saw the pin and thought "okay, it's only a pin so it's not that bad. We'll let it slide as long as the religion thing doesn't go further". The bible thing ended up being the straw.
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Posted: Oct 28th 2009 4:33pm | IP: Logged | Reply to this
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Uglysasquatch, Mercenary Major wrote:
Quote:
If you park in a handicapped spot without proper documentation 10 days and get ticketed on the 11th, are you going to also argue that you cannot be ticketed because nobody said anything the first 10 days?
Nice. Let's go from breaking company rules, to breaking the law. Totally the same.


A rule is a rule. Whether enforced by your manager or your government, rules are in place to establish boundaries for acceptable behavior. In the case of the button, he was expected to dress appropriately and chose not to, despite being given a chance to correct the violation. If you get caught speeding, the police officer has the discretion to let you go with a warning if he chooses to do so, or he can ticket you on the spot. Same with a manager and his employee. There is no requirement to give "adequate time" to adjust to a reported company policy violation, regardless of whether the employee had been getting away with it for some time.
----------------------------
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BrownDuck wrote:
A rule is a rule. Whether enforced by your manager or your government, rules are in place to establish boundaries for acceptable behavior. In the case of the button, he was expected to dress appropriately and chose not to, despite being given a chance to correct the violation. If you get caught speeding, the police officer has the discretion to let you go with a warning if he chooses to do so, or he can ticket you on the spot. Same with a manager and his employee. There is no requirement to give "adequate time" to adjust to a reported company policy violation, regardless of whether the employee had been getting away with it for some time.
I could choose to agree with you, or I could choose to agree with the law that I've actually seen enacted. Guess which one I'm choosing? Argue all you want, but I'm not going to agree with you as I've seen the law upheld to that which I'm arguing.

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